< PreviousMD: What initially drew you to the drums? Price: I started listening to my brother’s 45s when I was maybe five or six years old, and he was playing a lot of blue-eyed soul like the Righteous Brothers, the Dave Clark Five, and the Young Rascals. That really got to me. I grew up on Dino Danelli [the Young Rascals]. He was my drummer in those days. I wanted to play like him, and I watched him on The Ed Sullivan Show whenever the Young Rascals would play. I actually picked up the guitar first, because one of my cousins taught me to play a little bit. Then, I figured out I had more of a talent for playing drums than guitar. I went for one drum lesson, and they were teaching basic rudiments, so I got bored with that. Playing along with my brother’s records was how I really started. MD: Was your family supportive when you decided you wanted to play drums more seriously? Price: They were. I was never discouraged or had the “talk” about getting a real job. By the time I was 16 years old, I was already making money. As soon as I got out of high school, I got my driver’s license, and I was in a Top-40 band going across the country. The bass player and I were the only ones who knew how to drive a stick. We would rent a 14-foot truck, and the rest of the band would travel by car. We didn’t have a road crew, so we were the drivers, the crew, and the rhythm section. When I was 18 years old, I already had my own apartment, and I was paying my own way. MD: How did the Top-40 band experience segue into playing original music? Price: I thought playing other people’s music was paying my rock and roll dues. By the time I was finished with that, I was disgusted, and I came off the road thinking the next step for me was to get into an original band. When Studio Instrument Rentals opened up on 54th Street next to Studio 54 in Manhattan, I was there every day hanging out in the lobby, waiting for auditions to happen. This was around the time Meatloaf’s Bat Out of Hell came out. Kasim Sulton—a good friend of mine who I grew up with—played on that record, and he told me they were auditioning musicians to do the tour. I did my homework, I went to the audition, and they said they would be in touch with me. I was putting on my jacket, and this dude walks over to me and says, “Listen, I have a better band for you.” I’ll never forget that. He said his name was Jimmy Iovine, and he gives me a cassette and says, “Go home and learn these songs.” I didn’t know who the hell this guy was. I called him back, and he introduced me to this band Flame, which he had just signed to RCA. I got hired to do their second record and their first tour. Flame was more of a rock group, and Meatloaf wasn’t the kind of music I wanted to do, so I jumped to Flame. That’s how I met Iovine, and we became really good friends. He had me play on a couple of different records, and he was a big part of kick-starting my career. When Flame broke up, I joined Mink DeVille, and I stayed with them for three or four years. From there, I went to Scandal to Billy Idol to Joan Jett. MD: What was it like joining Joan Jett and the Blackhearts? Price: That’s a whole other story, because Kenny Laguna [Jett’s producer/manager] is a friend of of mine from the early days. I met Kenny when I was 16 years old. He was sent by managers Steve Leber and David Krebs to a tiny studio in Staten Island to produce a demo I was working on with some friends. He always remembered me from that. When he started working with Joan, he called me when he was putting the Blackhearts together. I really wanted to do it, but it was bad timing, because I had just gotten my passport to go to Europe with Mink DeVille. A couple of years later, Joan was co-starring in the movie Light of Day with Michael J. Fox. They called me to do the soundtrack with the Blackhearts, and that was the first record I did with Joan. At that time, whenever I was off the road with Billy Idol, I was working in the studio with Joan. I was doing two jobs—kind of like a back-and-forth thing. They kept me busy pretty much all through the 1980s. Then, I would also fit in a record with Tom Verlaine or John Waite. Eventually, there were a bunch of Top-10 records I had played on—”The Warrior” [Scandal], “Rebel Yell” [Idol], and “I Hate Myself for Loving You” [Jett]. You couldn’t go into a record store without hearing me the first five minutes you were there [laughs]. All of those records opened up a new bunch of doors, because other producers were hiring me for work, and I’m still getting work because of that time. MD: What about your own band, Downtown Phantom with guitarist Johnny Rao and bassist Joe Vasta? Price: Johnny and I have been constantly writing over the past eight years, and we finally put it all together for an album’s worth of material. All three of us have recording facilities in our homes, so we took advantage of it—especially this past year with not being able to do anything else but sit in your house. We are currently looking for a label and a publishing deal. Everything we’ve done with the album so far has been out of our pockets. It has sort of been our baby, so we decided to put it together and package it. Blackheart Records helped me do the artwork. Maybe if things get back to normal at some point, I’ll put a band together with them and promote it. I’d love to play the songs live. It’s a great record. You can hear it at downtownphantom.com. MD: Do you have a process for learning songs? Price: I try to understand the lyrics first, then I take the song apart, and see where I can and can’t play. That’s really important to me, and, of course, to the songwriter. I don’t want to step on anybody. I Mike Jachlesmap out where the parts are and see where the song is sitting, but I don’t write anything down. If I run through it once, I pretty much have it in my head. However, if someone tells me to listen to a record and learn every song, I’ll probably write some things down—a cheat notes sort of thing. MD: Can you explain what it is like to play in arenas and stadiums? Price: I don’t think you can ever really prepare to play a stadium. That’s a lot of f**king people, so you go into a little bit of a shock when you first start doing it. It’s something you have to get used to. For sound purposes, it’s the worst place to play. If you’re not using in-ear monitors, the sound is bouncing all over the place, and you can’t really hear yourself properly. If you are an opening act in stadiums, you pretty much don’t get a soundcheck, so you have to go out there blind. It’s pretty scary. MD: What recordings of yours do you feel best represent your playing? Price: The early Blackheart records, 1986–87. I also did a solo record with Kasim Sulton called Lights On [1986], and the playing on that is one of the better representations of me. I had Dino Danelli playing along with me on that one. MD: What was that experience like? Price: It was surreal, man. I had my two kits set up, Dino and I did a jam, and it was crazy. I wanted to just sit there, watch him play, and dig on him, but he made me play along with him. We became good friends after that. MD: Playing with such a vast and diverse array of artists, can you discuss the dynamic it takes to work with different personalities and temperaments? Price: I’ve learned over the years that you kind of have to be a fly on the wall. Dealing with people is a touchy thing, and it’s especially tricky being on the road and living with people on tour buses. Everyone is different, so you have to feel each other out—just like when you’re in a relationship or whatever. You can’t be too opinionated. You have to learn to keep your distance and know when to be present and when not to be present. You figure it out along the way. There’s no handbook for it. Also, you’re there to do your job, and you can’t say, “I don’t want to do my job today.” When I get hired for something, my ears are always open, and I’m ready to walk out of there knowing more than I walked in with. MD: What is your current set up? Price: My favorite kit is a maple Slingerland Radio King. It’s a great kit and it tunes up nice. I have a 14x24 bass drum, a 9x13 rack tom, Ron Akiyama Courtesy of Blackheart Records16x16 and 16x18 floor toms, and a mess of snare drums. My lucky charm, though, is a 6 1/2x14 wood Premier snare that was used on every big record I did—”Rebel Yell,” “The Warrior,” and others. I’ve carried that around everywhere, and it was back-and-forth so many times, it has been redone with new hoops and throw-offs, but the shell is the same. I still have it, as well as the bubble- gum pink kit it came from. Premier made it for me when I was in Mink DeVille. I’ve gone through quite a few companies in my career. I was endorsing Premier for many years, and they made me some really nice kits. I went over to Slingerland for a while—they made me a beautiful Radio King in gold glitter that I still have. For most of the ‘90s I had a Sonor endorsement, and around 2001, I switched back to Slingerland. MD: What cymbals are you using these days? Price: I’m still with Zildjian—it’s the only company I’ve ever been with. I have 18" and 19" medium- thin crashes. I used to use a Ping ride years ago, but I went over to an 18" medium-crash ride. Most of the stuff I do is crashing out on a ride, so instead of having that heavy ride and trying to make it crash, I just use a crash cymbal and ride on it. For the hi-hats, I use 14" New Beats. I don’t use anything too light, because I like to splash on the hi-hats like Alex Van Halen used to do. MD: As we hopefully move towards the return of live performances, what does the future hold for you? Price: I don’t know what’s going to happen once we’re on the other side of this. I just turned 64, so I don’t know how much touring I can do these days. Actually, I have been off the road now for about five years. I was diagnosed with cancer in 2016—and I’ve been five years cancer free so far—but I was on the mend for quite a while. I had stopped touring with Joan, but I was still playing on her records. Now that I’m in Texas, I’d like to do more studio work here—maybe here in Austin. Nashville, too. I’m also writing a lot of new music. I want to try to get a publishing deal, and place some of my music with other bands. I do want to keep myself busy with recording—that’s for sure. MD: In an industry that’s constantly changing, what advice would you give to an up-and-coming drummer looking to get into the business today? Price: This business is funny. It can take care of you, or it can kick you in the ass. I was one of the lucky ones. I made it through pretty good, and I would do everything the same way if I had the chance to do it all over again. I don’t think it’s fair that a lot of kids out there who want to play are discouraged somehow. So I would say, “Keep working hard, and don’t let anyone discourage you. Be grateful for the people who are behind you. Try to follow whatever you want to do and make it real.” Rich Scannella is the drummer for Jon Bon Jovi and the Kings of Suburbia, has performed with Bruce Springsteen, Bon Jovi, and Lady Gaga, and is an adjunct professor at Rider University in New Jersey. He can be reached at richscannella.com. Courtesy of Blackheart Records Courtesy of Blackheart RecordsThe Design Lab is a group of Artists, Engineers and Designers who form the incubator for unique professional instruments exclusively for Mapex Drums by using one of a kind sound inspirations and conceived by the revolutionary "Concept Hybrid Formula.” The Design Lab creates unique voices, each with a combination of the artistry of instrument making and the modern science of drum design. RUSS MILLER BPDLMH4460LPWBPDLMH4650LPWModern Drummer May 2021 52 Tony Williams M O D E R N D R U M M E R M A G A Z I N E • • Of Excellence THE WORLD’S #1 DRUMMING RESOURCE January 1978 By Aran Wald J ust what is a Tony Williams? Many of his admirers have described his style as: “Free,” “He doesn’t really play rudimental things,” “He’s loose,” “There’s something out of the ordinary about what he does,” and, “It’s different.” If those descriptions don’t tell you what a Tony Williams is, permit me to drop a few names on you: Alan Dawson, Herbie Hancock, Jackie McLean, John McLaughlin, Larry Young, and Miles Davis. Dawson was Anthony Williams’ first teacher when he was nine, having moved to Boston from his native Chicago. Early gigs with Jackie McLean led him to the infamous Miles Davis Quintet of the early ‘60s, which included Herbie Hancock, Ron Carter, and Wayne Shorter. John McLaughlin was a Davis “muse,” as was Larry Young. Add Tony, and you had the first Lifetime—the threesome’s group name from the title track of an album. There were other major jazz figures criss-crossing Tony’s comet-like tail. When Columbia Records had May 2021 Modern Drummer 53 the idea of reuniting that famous Miles Davis group for a Newport Jazz Festival in New York in 1976, Tony, Herbie, Ron, and Wayne made it, but fearless leader did not. Freddie Hubbard–probably the major trumpet voice on the scene at the moment– replaced Miles. The quintet–dubbed V.S.O.P. (Very Special Onetime Performance)–was born. A double pocket LP came of the NJF gig. A reprise tour was organized and a second LP recorded. Now residing in the Bay Area of San Francisco, Tony is currently in the studio polishing up the group he fronts in preparation for a new album. In the meantime, he tours for short spurts within a short radius of his home, “to give the group some work, and make them more self-assured when we get into the studio.” The interview was done during a casual, long- distance hook-up between the coasts. It was an “I’ve got all afternoon” affair, with no ego infringements whatsoever. Lissa WalesModern Drummer May 2021 54 MD: Let’s start from right now—the new record and the new group. Williams: We haven’t gone into the studio yet. We’ve played some local dates around the coast. At the moment, we have Gerry Mule and Mike Hoffmann on guitars, Paul Potyen on keyboards, and Mike Formanek on bass. We play some of the tunes from Million Dollar Legs, some from the Believe It album, and we’re even playing one song from Ego . MD: Why the west coast as home base? Williams: I’m on the west coast to enjoy it. It’s a personal move—having lived in New York for 14 years. I’ve never really lived anywhere else on my own. I lived at home until I was 16. New York was my first and only stop. It’s not like I’m running away from New York. I love it. It’s just that I thought it was time for a change. I chose San Francisco because it has seasons, and I like the changes. I always like changes. MD: You’ve been playing drums since you were… Williams: Nine. MD: What was your first set of drums like? Williams: An old Radio King set. It consisted of a very large bass drum—28" or 30"—and a 16" tom that was mounted on the bass. It was a very old type of set— probably made in the early ‘40s. There was also a snare and a hi-hat. The hi-hat cymbals were almost all bell. The bell used up more space than the flat section. They were only about 12" or 13", with this huge bell that was about 9". I got rid of those pretty quickly. MD: When did you move up to the big-time sets? Williams: I had the Radio Kings for about three years. My father had bought them for me. I got my first job at 11 or 12 years old, and it paid pretty well–for a kid. Thirty dollars for three nights work, and steady work, too. I saved 20 dollars of each week’s pay, and with the help of my mother, I bought my first Gretsch set. MD: The start of a long association, right? Williams: Yes. Right from the beginning. I was working at a club in Cambridge, Massachusetts, and I bought a silver-sparkle set—the exact same outfit that Max [Roach] played. I haven’t played anything other than Gretsch since. MD: Have you ever had formal lessons? Williams: After about four or five years on my own, I took lessons with Alan Dawson. Private lessons. I never did play in school, because there were no musical facilities in my high school. Now, this was Boston in the late ‘50s. Before the riots. The trouble there now–due to busing–was even heavier then. Consequently, I didn’t play in school. I’ll tell you though—I played drums outside of school all the time. I left high school to play drums. I started playing around Boston, and I became house drummer with a trio. We’d work with the guest artists coming in from out of town. Famous players. Jackie McLean came through, and he liked the way I played. He asked me to go to New York with him, and, well, you know the rest. MD: That must have been heavy training cutting shows for all those people. Williams: It was rough. But you got to play for a lot of different acts. I guess it’s somewhat like studio playing in that regard. MD: Who were you listening to in those years? Williams: I was listening to Miles, the Jazz Messengers, Trane, Rollins. MD: All those Prestige and Blue Notes… Williams: And the Riversides. MD: Did all those horn players have much of an influence on you? Williams: Sure. Of course. Miles was a big influence, years before I went with him. But I was also listening to classical music and living the life of a teenager, and that included the rock and roll of the day. The Clovers, Drifters, Dion and the Belmonts. That was all going on in my regular life. MD: What about drummers? Williams: There was a lot going on at the time. You still had the bop drummers around—Roach, Blakey, Kenny Clarke—as well as the rock drummers with their heavy-handed beats. I first started listening to drummers around Boston. There was a guy named Baggie–I’ve forgotten his last name. He didn’t have what you’d call technique, but he had such a great feeling. He made anything sound good. Then, of course, there was Alan Dawson. He’s so exact. So precise. MD: Where did you get the harmonic training you have to write the tunes you do? Williams: I play piano. I decided I wanted piano lessons around 1965, after I had made two albums, Life Time and Spring, on Blue Note. I knew what I could do without knowledge of the piano, and I wondered what I could do with some harmony and theory— knowledge of chords, you know. It was a progression I felt I needed, and I studied privately for two years. I don’t write on the piano, though. I try to avoid that. Right now, I’m writing out sketches and bringing them to the group. It’s not a formal procedure. I’m also doing head charts, developing them until I find a way of writing that suits me. I have a teacher now for orchestration. This way, I can write out whatever I’m asked to. I bring the sketch to rehearsal, work it out with the group, and rewrite it afterwards. MD: Who, of the musicians you’ve worked with, do you feel you learned the most from? Williams: That’s strange, because there are different categories. I’ve learned from bass players, horn players—probably the most from bass players. Drummers have to work closely with bassists, and I’ve been trying to understand bass players. Ron Carter, Gary Peacock, Richard Davis, Jack Bruce. I also learned a lot from Wayne Shorter, Sam Rivers, and Cecil Taylor. To work with Cecil and to see what it was I Lissa WalesMay 2021 Modern Drummer 55 could do for him—that’s what I mean. To be able to apply yourself to other people’s trips. It’s not just playing your instrument, and getting off on how good you are alone. It’s also seeing how well you can apply yourself to other people’s music and how you can give them what they want. It’s not always what you think is best, but rather what someone else might think is best. MD: Did you play with Miles during his Gil Evans days? Williams: Oh, yeah. We made some recordings that were never released. We played a concert in L.A. with the whole orchestra. I recorded with Gil on his last album, There Comes a Time . MD: What kind of a learning experience was that—a large orchestra? Williams: I like big bands. I think I could push a big band on a steady basis. I’d like to try. MD: Do you still practice? Williams: Not as much as I would like to or used to. It’s just that I spend so much time doing other things. When I was practicing every day, I was doing nothing else but that. I’d get up in the morning and not even bother getting dressed. I’d just move to the drums in my pajamas. I would be playing on the pad while I watched TV, and I’d go over another drummer’s house and play with him. All drumming, all day. I practiced on the pad to develop my hands. I started reading when I began studying with Alan. I feel that my hands are the most important thing. But I also liked to practice for at least an hour on the drums. No routines, no books. MD: How do you position your drums? Williams: I like to place my drums and cymbals a fair distance away from me so that I can get a good healthy swing. If things are too close, it’s rather stifling. There is a posture, but it’s not necessarily sitting up straight. I try to have everything set up so that there’s space to move and keep things evenly apart from each other. Your feet should be directly across from each other, rather than one in front of the other. I believe that whatever is going on around me physically, I’m going to feel emotionally. It’s like having a paper cut. It’s not something that’s going to kill you, but you know it’s there. You might be just a little bit irritable and not realize it. I have to be very relaxed and comfortable to play and sound relaxed. Very balanced— that’s the key. If my environment is balanced, then I’m going to have a better chance at sounding balanced. I want to give myself as much of an opportunity of sounding that way as possible. So, I really believe in sitting and having my hands in a balanced position. My cymbals and drums are up, so I have to reach for them like the way a baseball player, golfer, or tennis player uses the full force of the arm. Some people feel that bringing things in closer will help you hit easier and therefore faster. That’s cheating. And I’m not at all for it if I’m the one who’s being cheated. MD: What is your full setup? Does it vary? Williams: It doesn’t vary. Three floor toms— 14", 16", and 18"—a 6 1/2x14 snare drum, and 13" and 14" toms mounted on a 24" bass drum. My cymbals are all K Zildjian. MD: What about tuning? Williams: I don’t want to be conscious of tuning my drums. They’re all in sort of a resonant pitch. I tune them so they’ll sound good together in a group. I don’t vary the pitch for different groups, either. My bass is completely loose, while the other drums are tight. I’m really just interested in a good sound. Now, if we had drums that were made by craftsmen rather than machine, it would be different. I mean, let’s face it, drums are not made like acoustic basses or violins. They’re made by big machines. I believe I can get a good sound out of any drum. Just give me half an hour, and I’ll get a good sound. MD: Any preferences in heads and sticks? Williams: I use Remo heads, and there are two on all my drums. I also prefer wood drums. I’m not especially fond of plastic. I can play them, but I’d rather not. I do like plastic heads, though. Calf is so vulnerable to the weather. Every time I played outdoors, I found myself tuning the things. You put a calf head set on a plane, and it gets cold in those cargo compartments. The heads go up and down, tight and loose. Too many changes with calf. MD: Isn’t there a problem in playing with brushes on plastic heads? Williams: That’s true. The clear calf heads do have a good grain to them, and that’s what you need for brushwork. I use the CS heads with the black dot, and they have no grain. They’re less suited to brushwork. But I don’t play with brushes as much as I used to, and I prefer the plastic. I don’t like plastic-tipped drumsticks, though. As far as sticks are concerned, I like to use a good solid wood-tipped stick, like a Gretsch 2B. No artificial tips. No steel. MD: Have you ever played single-headed drums? What’s the difference? Williams: A double-headed drum is combustible. A single-headed drum isn’t. When you hit a single-headed drum, the sound just goes out, and that’s it. But with double heads, you have the bottom head pushing back against the top. Inside the drum you have what I like to think of as combustion and resonance happening. The sound is more apt to come back at you. You have to work harder on a single-headed drum, too. It takes its toll over a long period of time. MD: Does it matter to you which stick grip you use? Williams: It depends on the situation. I don’t think the matched grip is something you can base a whole technique on. You have to work on technique. You have to work on holding the sticks. That’s the biggest problem for a drummer. That’s what he has to do most—hold Lissa WalesModern Drummer May 2021 56 the sticks. For a trumpet player, it’s his embouchure. That’s where it all begins. With drums, it’s how you pick up the sticks. That’s what you have to do best. Those are your chops. It begins where your hand raises up, comes down, and makes a distinctive sound, and you work on it until it becomes right. I still work on it. I’m very conscious of my technique. MD: Where do you teach? Williams: I teach privately wherever I am. And I do clinics where I teach feeling the drums, feeling comfortable, and understanding what it is. Your technique is there, so you can express a feeling. The physical and emotional feeling of playing drums is what I teach— that’s all. I don’t want to subject myself to describing what it is that I do. I don’t want to teach anyone to play like me, but to be as good a drummer as they can. MD: Would you ever consider electronics? Williams: I have no desire to do that. It might have been a natural for me with Miles, but I didn’t try it, and I don’t know if I wanted to. I wouldn’t even think about it right now—even though it’s all being perfected. It would have to be the drums that make me do it—not Miles, or Gil Evans, or Joe Gallivan [electronic drum experimenter]. It would have to be a good-sounding electronic drum. MD: What’s your concept of the drummer’s role in a group? Williams: In any group, a drummer’s first responsibility is time. Another is to act as a bridge between the other instruments—the bass and piano, the piano and horns, the bass and horns. He should also help them to feel comfortable. When you’ve got those three things covered, then you can go on to other things. MD: Do you like soloing? Do you think it should be done all the time, every tune, every night? Williams: I love soloing. Some people say I don’t solo enough. If the audience wants to see me solo more, I don’t mind doing it. MD: Who, in your opinion, has been the most influential force in modern drumming? Williams: I think Max was the most dynamic of his time—the state of the art at that moment. He was the forefront of that type of drumming, more so than say, Buddy [Rich]. Joe Jones has been a big influence on drummers. I got a lot from everybody. Philly Joe, who played differently from Max, and Art Blakey who played differently from everybody. Philly Joe was influenced more by Sid Catlett than Max. The independence of hands and feet, that all came from Catlett and Kenny Clarke. They were the founders of what we all do today. Guys like Dave Tough were doing it way back. MD: Are you totally fulfilled, or is there still something you want to accomplish in music? Williams: I’d like to write for orchestra. Other than that, I’d like to have a hit record—you know, make a million dollars. MD: Any parting words directed towards fellow drummers? Williams: Sure. Basically, you’ve really got to love the instrument, and love playing no matter what music it is. The best thing any drummer can do is to really love what he’s doing. If you do that, you’ll play them well. “I like to place my drums and cymbals a fair distance away from me so that I can get a good healthy swing.” Lissa WalesNext >