< PreviousModern Drummer July 2022 38 I do know that I do have a way of writing a riff that sounds backwards when you start playing it. On the song “You’ll Be the One,” if you started counting that out when the riff started, you would be counting it backwards. But then the drums come in, and you can hear where the time is. I love to start a song and have the listener be sort of unsure where the time is, and then the drums come in, and the listener hears where the time is. I guess I’m just a glutton for punishment, but I really like messing around with things like that. MD : Garrett, on those tunes where the time isn’t where you think it is, how did you approach or cope with that? GW : Like Wolf said, “Epiphany” is a great example of what you are asking about. When I was first learning that tune, I slowed it down a lot. I committed myself to sitting there and not getting up until I could get through it, slowly! At first, I just sat there and thought, “I can’t play this!” So, I got a metronome and worked it out piece by piece. I started with the hi hat part and then I added the snare drum, and then the bass drum. I started at the slowest tempo that I could play it cleanly, and then I bumped it up very gradually. It just takes patience and putting the time into learning the part for each section of the song separately, before you put them together and try to play it at the song tempo. Every night when we play through “Epiphany” cleanly and right, that’s a real musical victory. WVH: When I wrote “Epiphany” the first part that I added in the Logic demo was the drums. I made the hi hat very straight and up and down, but it wasn’t until I got into the studio that I realized that it was weird. I almost changed it, but I was so in love with that hi hat part because I had been listening to it for two years (or so,) that I couldn’t change it. I guess it was a case of “demo-itis.” One of the “tricks” to “Epiphany” is to create that hi hat bark, you don’t have to open the hi hat as much as you think that you do. You just have to release the pressure with your left foot a little bit to create that sound. It’s really about making sure that the closed hi hat sound is closed real tight, instead of focusing on the open sound. MD: After spending so much time recording the record, I’m sure you created some stuff that was challenging to play live. What are some of the hardest tunes to play live? WVH: I did that a lot, and I would ask (producer) Elvis, “How am July 2022 Modern Drummer 39 I going to pull this off live? He would always say, “That was a problem for “Future Wolfie.” But seriously, I never have to worry about the drums and bass parts Garrett and Ronnie are playing all of the parts perfectly. For live stuff, it’s just a matter of guitars and vocals because there is so much layered stuff, and I refuse to have background tracks. So we have to establish who does which guitar and vocal parts. MD: Are you planning the next Mammoth record? WVH : Yes, it’s looking like there will be a window to get into the studio in September or October. I can’t wait to start working on it because it’s the only time that I get to play drums anymore. MD : Are you playing everything on the next record? WVH : Yeah probably. That’s my “selfish time.” I get to have fun and play everything when I’m recording, and that’s the only time I get to do that, so I’m excited. The only time that I have gotten to play drums recently is when I did Clint Lowery’s record, and when I record. MD : Lyrically, you have a unique sense of writing because on several tunes the name of the tune hardly appears (lyrically) in the song. Led Zeppelin was like that too. You don’t pound people over the head with the hooks and the titles of the songs, where did that come from? WVH: Thanks for hearing that. There are four or five songs on the record where I don’t even say the name of the tune in the lyrics. I want everyone to be able to find their own meanings in my lyrics. I think it encourages people to put their own self into the songs. To me, it would be boring if it was super obvious as to what every song is about, and it was laid out on a silver platter. MD: How do you write music? WVH : Usually I get an idea on the guitar, I keep it on my phone as a voice memo, and then I’ll go to Logic and make a demo. Then I start thinking about it constantly and the song evolves, and I keep adding stuff. MD : How do you know when a song is done? WVH: That’s always the challenge. MD : How does being a multi-instrumentalist inform how you create different parts and of course drum parts? WVH: I think my roots as a drummer helps everything else in a monumental way. My roots as a drummer demands that everything grooves and flows well. MD: Does being a drummer affect how you arrange songs and create arrangements within songs? WVH: I have heard great arrangements of rock songs my whole life, I’m sure that has affected how I hear songs and how I think about the structure of a song. MD: Obviously, you have (probably) heard your Uncle Al play drums more than any other drummer, what kind of a drumming influence did he have on you? WVH: I think he has influenced me in ways that I probably don’t even realize, just because I have been around his drumming since I was born. Really, we are all drummers at heart. My dad started as a drummer. To have that rhythmic sense installed into you when you begin your musical journey is a huge benefit, no matter what instrument you wind up playing. But watching Al play and move around the kit was always cool. His double bass drumming is also terribly proficient. People always talk about “Hot for Teacher” which is amazing, but his playing on songs like “I’m the One” or “Ice Cream Man” is ridiculous. I’d argue that the shuffle that he plays in “I’m the One” is some of his best playing. MD: I agree, that’s a perfect double bass drum shuffle. He‘s got a great sense of rock and roll swing too. WVH : I also love the fact that he hits hard, I love that about Garrett too. MD: I was very sorry to hear about your dad, I lost my dad recently, and I know it’s an impossible question to answer. But what did you learn from your dad about music? WVH : Thanks, I’m sorry to hear about your dad too. Dad taught me that if it sounds good, it is good. You don’t overthink things. If you are having a good time with something and it sounds good, then there is no reason to overthink or overanalyze it. After that first little drum “lesson,” my dad never taught me any other music except power chords, and Uncle Al never sat me down at the drums and taught me any drum stuff. It was always me just taking things into my own hands and practicing. GW: I was fortunate to see Van Halen play a private show, and to watch his dad, Al and Wolf play together was just so natural, it was just this natural exchange. MD: It was a real natural musical conversation. MD : Garrett what kind of drums and cymbals are you playing? GW : I have been playing DW Collectors Series for a long time. They are the Cadillac of drums. I also love the Maple Mahogany shells too. I have always liked bigger drums, so I have a 16x26 bass drum, my toms are 10x14 and 14x16 and 16x18 both with legs, and I use a gong drum that is 16x20. My snare is a 6.5x14 Bell Brass with die cast hoops. I like the DW 9000 pedals for faster stuff, but for groove stuff like Mammoth WVH, I really love the 5000’s. I play Vater sticks, I play the Virgil Donati stick. Evans was one of the first companies that offered me an endorsement, so I have a special relationship with them, and I have been playing Sabian Cymbals just as long as I have been using Evans heads. My ride is a 24” Paragon. I am playing 15” AAX Medium Hats, a 20” AAX Xplosion Crash and a 20” AAX Heavy Crash, and a 21” Holey China. That’s the greatest china cymbal ever. I also have a Radia bell and a 12” China for accents. I’m not one of those guys with a million drums and cymbals. I can’t thank all of those companies enough for all of the help that they have given me. I feel like I get to play the best gear on the planet every night. MD: Wolf, do you have a drum choice? WVH : Those Gretsch’s that I get from Mike Fasano are just money. But I’ll play whatever works. And far as cymbals and snares I don’t really have a preference, I’ve played everything. GW : I just want to say that doing an interview with Modern Drummer is a dream come true. I have been reading this magazine for a very long time. I have learned a lot by reading Modern Drummer, I have boxes and stacks of old MD’s at my dad’s house, so I can’t thank you enough for including me in this interview. MD : No problem, you both deserve it. Garrett, you are building a great drumming career, you sound fantastic, and you are playing drums in a terrific rock band. And Wolf you are a great songwriter, a killer drummer, and seem to be an excellent bandleader. And (most importantly) you both seem like really good guys! I hope to talk to you both again in five years after the fifth Mammoth WVH record and congratulate you on your stack of Grammy’s, hit singles, and Platinum records. MM Check out Wolfgang and Garrett's Modern Drummer profile pages at moderndrummer.comModern Drummer July 2022 40 Felipe Orvi Jonathan Pinson: Asking Questions By Mark Griffith W ith all of the amazing young jazz drummers around these days, it’s got to be tough to set yourself apart. But when you can put names like Seal, Wayne Shorter, Herbie Hancock, Terrace Martin, and Kamasi Washington on your resume, people should take notice. Jonathan Pinson also has a new record coming out, and a signature Canopus Snare drum. July 2022 Modern Drummer 41Modern Drummer July 2022 42 MD : How does a guy who unsuccessfully auditioned three times for his High School band, wind up playing with Wayne Shorter, Herbie Hancock, Terrace Martin, and Kamasi Washington? JP : After school music programs. As a kid I went to the Colburn School of Performing Arts, Jazz America, and spent time at The World Stage. MD : Are you from LA? JP: Yes, born and raised in LA. I went to the East Coast and did a bunch of stuff, but now I’m back in LA. MD : Through those programs, who were you studying with, and what were you studying? JP : At Jazz America I was learning from Buddy Collette, at The World Stage I got to study with Billy Higgins. MD: I knew Billy pretty well, but I never got to “study” with him, what was that like? JP : I started studying with Billy from when I was seven until when I was eleven. I remember learning how important he was. When he walked down the street, five or six people would always follow him, and whenever he entered a room, everything stopped. He really helped me get over my youthful stage fright. Whenever I would go to a jam session, he would see me, come and get me, and pick me up and put me on the drum throne after he played. I would be so afraid to go to those sessions. I would hide in the back, but he always found me, that helped me get beyond that fear. I got to hear Billy play guitar a lot, he was really into Brazilian music. He had a huge impact on me. At the Colburn School I have to give a lot of credit to my combo teacher Lee Seecard and my drum teacher Jerry Kalaf. Jerry had me sightreading, and listening to all kinds of drummers like Elvin, Billy Cobham, and then younger guys like Nasheet Waits. Lee was a tough teacher, in some ways he treated us like we were adults, and I was only 14, but it was a great experience. Being a musician, you have to get used to that kind of environment. Every time you would slip up or start acting like an adolescent, Lee would pull you aside, get on your case, and tell you that if you wanted to do play music you had to take it seriously and do things correctly. MD : I am starting to think that in music, at a certain point, there is nothing more educational than tough love. In the professional world of music, you get one shot, and when that time comes, there are no excuses. JP: All of my teachers have been very warm people, but they also gave me heavy reality checks. It wasn’t that I needed those reality checks because (as you said) I had already failed to make it into my high school band. When I got to Berklee, nothing was handed to me either. My two teachers were Ralph Peterson and Terri Lyne Carrington. MD: I knew Ralph for 30 years or so and I miss him dearly. He has been a heavy influence on me, and your generation as well. Tell me about studying with Ralph. JP: I was at Berklee at a great time. My peer group was Justin Faulkner, Joe Dyson, Corey Fonville, Mark Whitfield Jr, Sheldon Reed, and Kush Abadey. We were all studying under Ralph, and to put it bluntly, he just kicked our asses on a daily basis. Even as talented as all those guys are, no one had the luxury of just “chilling.” Ralph would constantly remind us that if we weren’t good enough to get all of the gigs, he (Ralph) was going to get them. That was the reality. We all had a front row seat to how Ralph was handling his business, and he was an open book, so I learned a lot of the business from him. His first lesson was, “Musicians can buy a house.” With Ralph it was all about self-worth, having an open mind, and discipline. MD : Ralph even recorded one of your tunes.July 2022 Modern Drummer 43Modern Drummer July 2022 44 JP : Yes “Impervious Gems” on The Duality Perspective. MD : What did you learn from Terri Lyne? JP: Terri is all about focus. I think she gets that from being around Herbie and Wayne. Everything she says is very intentional. When Terri talks, she is very precise, everything means something. When you didn’t take care of business for Terri, she would get sincerely disappointed in you. She would tell you, in this very soft voice, how she expected better from you. That would hurt even more than Ralph yelling at you and telling you to get your shit together! At Berklee, the second you thought that you were getting somewhere musically, either Terri or Ralph would sit down at the drums and play. Then you would think, “Oh, that’s what it’s about, I’m not there yet!” I’ve never really had a conversation about all of my teachers, this is really interesting to go back and share what I learned from everyone along the way. MD : I think there are a lot of younger drummers out there who are considering going to a music school like Berklee. I always tell students of mine that in music school, you wind up learning as much from your peers as you do from your teachers. Can you talk about what music school was like for you? JP : I realize there was time at Berklee when it was Jeff “Tain” Watts and Marvin “Smitty” Smith… MD : And before that there was the time of Vinnie Colaiuta, Steve Smith, John “JR” Robinson and others. JP: I know. But honestly I wouldn’t trade my time with my peers Justin Faulkner, Joe Dyson, Corey Fonville, Justin Tyson, Sheldon Reed, Mark Whitfield Jr, and Kush Abadey for anything. Justin is playing with Branford Marsalis, Joe Dyson is playing with Pat Metheny, Mark has his own thing, Justin Tyson is playing with Robert Glasper, and Corey has his band, Butcher Brown. We all still talk and keep in close contact. So yes, it was a great environment to learn from my peers. I didn’t come from the place of being “The Guy,” like you said I couldn’t even get into my high school band, and in retrospect, I’m glad about that. Because at Berklee, even when your teachers weren’t kicking your ass, your peers were right there to show you what was up. There was just too much talent there to relax. MD : When you were younger, what music were you listening to?July 2022 Modern Drummer 45 JP : My mom was in the church choir, and my stepdad was the choir director. My introduction to music was church music like Hezekaiah Walker, Kim Burrell, Kirk Franklin, and Donald Lawrence. Gospel music was playing around the house all of the time. When I was young, I was the kid who is always asking questions. So when Billy Higgins was around, I asked him about records that he had done, and the first record that I bought with my own money was Lee Morgan Cornbread. MD : He told me that was one of his favorites. It has a drum feature called “Our Man Higgins” on it, the funky tune “Cornbread,” the bossa “Ceora,” and “The Gigolo.” That’s a great place to start for a young kid. JP : Jerry Kalaf had gone to Berklee, and he studied with Alan Dawson. He got me into Elvin. I was listening to A Love Supreme when I was 13. When I heard Billy Cobham, I heard a similarity in his approach to the modern gospel music that I was hearing at church and at home. I was listening to The Police and Sting a lot, and I loved Seal. MD : After Berklee you got accepted to The Monk Institute (now called The Herbie Hancock Institute) what was that experience like? JP : The Hancock Institute is at UCLA, so I went from a focused music school, to a focused educational institution. So not only are you surrounded by talented musicians, but you have students at UCLA who are genius’ in their own fields. I was very curious about those guys, again I am always the guy to ask people questions, so I got really close with some students from UCLA who are at the top of their professions today. That program provided me exactly what I needed to put my career where it is today. When I was a student there, Wayne Shorter asked me to sub for Brian Blade in his band, and Wayne recommended me to Herbie Hancock. Those two situations really catapulted my career. MD: Those two gentlemen are two of my heroes. What did you learn from Wayne? And mind you, I know that “interpreting” Wayne is a little tough and hard to explain. I know he doesn’t speak in straight lines. JP : Wayne and Herbie were teachers at the institute, and there was Modern Drummer July 2022 46 this thing I call the “Wayne Shorter effect.” There were always these great musicians coming through the institute. You might be in a room rehearsing and Wayne would come into the room. When he did, everyone (no matter how old or talented,) would turn into a little kid. But this would happen because Wayne was thinking like a kid. Wayne just brings that kid-like energy wherever he is. There was a day where Wayne was practicing “Oleo” on tenor and sounding amazing. Immediately after that, he showed us an old movie. Some of the story lines of the movies he brought in were terrible, but the music was always incredible. After we watched the movie, he had us play some of his (hard) music, and it made sense based on what we had just watched and heard. The process of watching those movies connected the emotional dots in all of Wayne’s music. Wayne had so much energy and imagination, it was indescribable. I’ve always thought that it would be fascinating to put Wayne Shorter and Jim Carey in a room together, and just watch what happens. MD : What were some of the movies that he showed you? JP : They were all pretty weird. There was a sci-fimovie called Upside Down, we watched Freddy in Space which was terrible. What I did learn from all of these movies was how the music heightened the experience. After Wayne, I went back and re-watched Star Wars, I started to hear how every character has a theme. That entire experience introduced me to musical intention, which goes back to Terri Lyne. MD: Who ironically also played with both Wayne and Herbie. Did Wayne talk about the composers from the movies? JP : Nope, he would just talk about the emotion of a scene from the movie. Then he would compare that emotion to a song that he had written. He would use these movies to characterize what it was like to be “in a moment.” We would be watching a movie, and he would stop it and say, ”Right there, that’s the moment!!!” When we rehearsed for a Japanese tour, he would have us play a tune and say, “We could do this, and we might not do this.” The rehearsal was just brushing up on the possibilities of where the music might go. He also taught me how to NOT take yourself too seriously. His playing on that tour literally brought me to tears. MD: What did you learn from the experience of playing with Herbie Hancock? JP : I like the comparisons of Herbie and Wayne. Both of them encouraged you to have an open mind, be curious, and keep asking questions. They are both very disciplined, they both get to the same July 2022 Modern Drummer 47 places, but they do it in different ways. Wayne has this very child-like energy, and an over the moon sense of imagination. Herbie has that too, but Herbie has more structure within the situation. Herbie is very curious without any fear of failure. Playing in Herbie’s band was about spiritualism and professionalism. He made me feel welcome, but it was clear that it was Herbie’s band. I was subbing for Vinnie Colaiuta and Trevor Lawrence, so it was a wild ride. MD: You have mentioned the importance of asking questions three times. Talk about the importance of asking questions? JP : Yeah, I noticed that too. Through talking to you, I am learning that might just be my mantra. I have always been curious. But the importance of curiosity and asking questions was confirmed from the two living musicians that I admire the most, Wayne Shorter and Herbie Hancock. But Ralph Peterson was like that too. MD : Unfortunately, people today are more into answers than they are questions. JP: My curiosity has encouraged me to check out other kinds of music and see what’s out there. That’s probably also why I’m still working. There is so much good music out there, I am curious to see what I need to learn to apply myself to new music (whatever it might be.) I have to be fearless to go into another musical realm and sound terrible. MD: Why would you sound terrible? JP : Because I have never played it before. When I was at Berklee they had a Latin Night at Wally’s (a club in Boston.) I jumped into that, and I know I sounded terrible, but being open to growth will allow you to grow as a human being and a musician. MD : What was Seal like to work for? JP: Seal has this volcanic spirit that creates a unique energy, he is an amazing artist. I did a tour of Russia with him, and we were playing with orchestras. He always found a way to switch things up enough to keep them fresh, and he always sounded amazing. He is super- intense and he always gives 140%. You get caught in his supernova of energy, and then when you are done, he is this super sweet and generous guy. MD : You have also played with Terrace Martin, who is one of the most creative people in music right now. How did that happen? JP: Terrace and Kamasi Washington are both like big brothers to me. Kamasi and I have known each other forever. We all came up together under the tutelage of Billy Higgins. When Kamasi’s record The Epic came out and the other drummers split, Kamasi called me, and we went on the road. Terrace and I have run into each other at all these weird shows, and he noticed that we were checking out the same music. He told me that he was curious about me because I seemed to have my ear everywhere. He didn’t expect that from me because he saw me as a jazz musician. The first time I played with him was at a gig in LA with Derrick Hodge, Robert Glasper, Terrace, and myself. I just did a record with him that should be out around Christmas. Terrace has continued to put me into all sorts of different musical situations, and he has continued to teach me about how the music business works. Kamasi Washington is just such a wonderful spirit. Fame hasn’t changed him one bit. And believe me, he has had many opportunities to change for the worst, but he didn’t. He has remained humble and solid, and that is just so refreshing these days. Whatever happens, the most important thing is to be a sincere and nice person to the people around you, and to be the best person that you can be. MD: What gear are you playing now? JP : I am really into relationships, and I need high quality gear.Those two things have led me to Istanbul Cymbals, and Canopus Drums. With Istanbul Cymbals I am dealing with a great guy named Scott Liken. The first time we spoke, it was like you and I are talking today. We just talked, it was great. I already knew the cymbals were great, but just talking to a caring guy like Scott, I was sold. Istanbul is also always curious and open to new things, and they are willing to listen to what drummers have to say. That is a hard characteristic to come by these days! MD : Listening does seem to be a lost art form. Let’s talk about Canopus and your signature snare. JP: Mark Whitfield Jr., Christian Euman, and Jonathan Barber put in a good word for me with Canopus, and they contacted me immediately. I had heard Brian Blade playing their drums early on, and they (and he) sounded amazing. On a tour of Japan, I stopped by their shop, and we had a nice talk. Again, he asked me questions, and I asked him questions, it seemed like a perfect way to start a relationship. That led to this snare drum that we created together. MD : As we talk, I am seeing a pattern here. You love to have relationships with people that have open minds and ask questions. However, I have to ask with all due respect. For a company that makes the Zelkova snare, which is a truly amazing snare, what use is there in making another snare drum? JP: I hear what you’re saying, I have a few Zelkovas, and I agree. That is a beautiful drum that sounds amazing. But I wanted a contrasting sound that could be used in all styles of music. This drum tunes way up and way down quickly and with absolute ease. The range of my drum is incredible. The Zelkova is warm and a little drier than my drum. My drum is Maple and Poplar. The pop is really pronounced, the Maple provides a nice midrange, and I had them install an internal muffler. Whatever sonic choice you are looking for, my drum provides it. MD: Talk to me about your band. JP : The new album finally comes out on July 22. It’s a great band. The saxophonist is Mario Castro. I couldn’t choose between bassists, so I used two bassists. Kyle Miles who is in Meshell Ndegeocello’s band, and bassist Joshua Crumbly who I played with when I toured with Kamasi Washington, we have known each other since I was 13.. My pianist is Taber Gable he sounds like George Duke and he sings like Michael McDonald. We have both played with Terrace Martin. Guitarist Andrew Renfore is (in my opinion) the baddest guitarist of my generation. Melogia is one of those musicians that can do everything, they call her the voice of Puerto Rico. This new record is about storytelling, I don’t even solo on it. There are musical segue ways, singing, rapping, everything. I do a Tony Williams tune, a fusion hip-hop tune, one tune has a real Marvin Gaye production thing happening in the background. With this new record I wanted people to see me as the drummer that plays with Seal, Moses Sumney, Kamasi Washington, Terrace Martin, Wayne Shorter and Herbie Hancock. I don’t take any of that for granted. I am just so blessed to have played with all of those guys, and I can’t believe that I can actually call some of them my friends. MD : What music are you listening to today? JP: I just got through listening to Jon Batiste’s Live at The Vanguard album, R&B musician Christian Kuria, Alex Isley’s new record is great, she has an amazing voice. I found a song by Motron on a Netflix movie that is beautiful, and I love a Brazilian singer-songwriter named Ginga. MD : You have a gig coming up at the Vanguard don’t you? JP: Yeah I’m playing the Village Vanguard in New York City with saxophonist Mark Turner, I also just did a record with Mark. I’m really excited about playing the Vanguard! Check out Jonathan's Modern Drummer profile page at moderndrummer.comNext >